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Lib-Green election pact Email Print

You've probably all heard about the new agreement between Liberal and Green party leaders not to run against each other in the next federal election. This morning's paper had a lot of follow-up to yesteday's story. The Globe and Mail, for example, had a story on insider reactions as well as a critical editorial and a more positive op-ed from Lawrence Martin. (The last two links are for subscribers.)

I'm wondering what you all think of it?

My initial response is to think more positively of Dion for making the deal. In a multiparty system, one in which it appears majority governments are going to be rare in the foreseeable future, getting anything done requires alliances between parties. Dion clearly recognizes that; he does not see other parties as implacably his enemies.

I can see why some, such as the G+M editorial board, see it as bizarre. May gave up nothing real in exchange for the assistance with her own seat. Dion needs no help to win in his district. Nevertheless, if May has a better chance than the Liberals of knocking off Peter Mackay, then the Liberals need nothing in exchange to make this deal worthwhile. Even though the Liberals finished ahead of the Greens last time, it's a reasonable assessment. When the Liberals could do no better than third (albeit a respectable third) last time, there's no reason to expect they'll rocket to first in Central Nova. On the other hand, Elizabeth May is a star candidate for a party getting more exposure every time; she could conceivably make a breakthrough.

I think Dion would have done better to get Green support in a genuine swing riding, rather than his own, safe seat. But that doesn't mean withdrawing from Central Nova, in itself, wasn't a good move.

My other concern is about the top-down decision about a local candidacy. One of the things I hated about Paul Martin was his willingness to parachute candidates in opposition to local riding associations. I could never trust someone whose modus operandi was so anti-democratic. I don't know whether Dion consulted the Central Nova Liberal leadership about this; I hope he did.

The choice is a little more obvious for May. A minor party gets no mileage out of its votes if they're spread too wide. While the Greens have made a point about running in every riding in the past couple of elections, to show that they're one of only four real national parties, they still need to focus their resources on a few seats they might actually win.

As a New Democrat, I'm a little disappointed in my leader. The aforementioned article reports that May sought a similar arrangement with Jack Layton, but he wouldn't return her calls. Maybe it's too much to expect the NDP to walk away from Central Nova (where it ran a strong second), but maybe a more conservative riding. Somewhere like Muskoka or the Rocky Mountains, where the local economy depends on the environment. That kind of district always has a lot of small businesspeople who find socialism anathema but might vote for a strong environment if it can be wrapped in a more fiscally conservative and small-business oriented approach. People who are green enough but not red enough to vote NDP. In exchange, the Greens could keep out of some BC ridings that are close NDP-Conservative fights.

This kind of horse-trading is novel in Canada, but well-known in some other countries with Westminster-style systems (India and Malaysia come to mind). If we're going to have a healthy multiparty system without adopting PR, I think Canadians need to discover it.

Poll

Was this a smart deal?
Good for both Liberals and Greens 72%
Good for the Liberals; bad for the Greens 0%
Good for the Greens; bad for the Liberals 0%
Bad for both Liberals and Greens 27%

Votes: 11 | Comments: 34
Results | Other Polls
on the poll, but I have to think overall it's a positive for both parties.

The very fact there is so much outrage from the opposition parties suggests they think it may hurt them.

I heard Baird on Duffy and he went on and on about how Dion's own seat was in danger of being lost, which I don't believe for a minute, but that's the spin he's putting on it, that Dion needs the Green help!

Liberals and Greens would both benefit IF May somehow won.  So would I, I'd smile all day long :>)

It's being called 'back room dealing' by the NDP, relentlessly, but that is the pot calling the kettle black for sure.

The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

by CanadianBill on 04/14/2007 10:23:44 AM EST

I agree, tough call in the poll. I go back to May's initial decision to run in Central Nova against a popular, high profile incumbent with a long family history in the riding. From a political strategy point of view, this is questionable: if she hits one out of the park, she is a genius, if she loses, then she leads her party from outside the house  or she quietly fades with the sunset. ( though from what I have seen of May recently, she has no intention of quietly fading anywhere) A huge risk in my opinion. The  downside could be political irrelevance, surely a fate worse than death for a politician.

So this, (IMHO), rather shaky beginning for May is now compounded, and perhaps weakened even further by what may be perceived by many Canadians as political jiggery-pokery and back-room shenanigans.

It certainly has as much potential to be viewed as brinksmanship or manipulation than as a stunning brave new world approach to non partisan cooperation.

On the plus side, Dion is getting more attention than anytime since his leadership win.

I like politics, wherever possible, to be entertaining and all of this keeps Canadian Politics in the public eye, which can only be good.

And it may well be the breath of fresh air and deft political maneuver that Dion and Green seem to think it is.

I hope I am wrong, but I answer the poll as bad for both Liberals and Greens.

If this works out as positive for all, I am willing to begin a reassessment of my view of Dion's performance as leader.

by Archer on 04/14/2007 12:05:34 PM EST

We need more of this and less of my noodling around.

The Toronto Star has another interesting angle on the story. They say May is going to give the riding a chance to punish Potato Pete for burying the old PC party. After all, he did promise not to merge with the Alliance.

Recommended!

The older parties were moribund. Preston Manning was able to transform the right. The Libs seem to have booted some of the party establishment by electing Dion. Remember Dion got to be party leader on the basis of Kennedy's movement to him earlier than was necessary. And Justin Trudeau came along too. So I'd argue there's been some renewal there too. (Incidentally no one here has commented on Belinda's resignation, Yawn. That does make way for a pretty dynamic Martha Hall Findlay to take that seat if she so desires. )

You're right, er, correct, about Jack Layton. Is there a winning strategy for the NDP now?

Although it is unlikely that there will be an election call soon it isn't that far away.

by paul2port on 04/14/2007 07:54:17 PM EST

I think its a good thing personally. Instead of splitting votes and handing it to the conserves,
there may be hope in some ridings.

The thing that is bothering me is Layton's reaction.
Not to offend any NDP'ers here, but that guy is like a used car salesman who is always makin' deals.
Pot, meet kettle.

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 04/16/2007 10:38:38 AM EST

MGK has put an important issue forward and there's been hardly any discussion. The Toronto Star featured this and they had an editorial on Sunday saying it was undemocratic for the Liberals not to run against May. Dion was pictured in the editorial cartoon as a school boy beside a rather large May.

With the industrial/manufacturing base going in the toilet along with their good union jobs I wonder if the NDP/ labour connection is a passe, a last century ideal? How else to explain some of the things going on? At a party on the weekend two of the twenty-somethings I spoke to were excited about their new jobs with a major US company expanding to Canada. They don't have pensions or benefits. And if the NDP doesn't go through some renewal they may be replaced by the Greens. The Greens seem to be more oriented to the new economy than the old generation labour bosses who still dominate the NDP.

There wasn't much outcry against Circuit City in the US when they fired their experienced employees making $31,000 to replace them with minimum wage workers. I'm appalled. Labour doesn't count for much any more. In Canada, at least they might be able to claim discrimination based upon age.

What about Economic Inequality?

If the NDP and the Liberals don't learn to get along then they may become the permanent opposition.

by paul2port on 04/16/2007 11:23:41 AM EST

I will rail against the Conservative party until I'm blue in the face, my fingers are bleeding, and their organization is effecively neutered.  But since I'm not a citizen and can't vote, I stay out of this stuff.  I just sit back, read, and learn.  I don't know enough about the non-Con political landscape here to get really involved in the discussion.  Not to mention the whole carpetbagger thing, which I try to avoid at all costs.  Bad enough I'm just a Permanent Resident on this here Canadian blog trying to rally people against the Republican menace.  Plus I was busy all weekend. ;-)

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 04/16/2007 03:12:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...this is a great diary.  The diary and comments all make sense to me and I have little to add.

This is from Susan Riley, in The Ottawa Citizen and was carried by The Regina Leader-Post.

For the Conservatives, the deal is further evidence -- along with the Ottawa Senators' second-game loss and this month's miserable weather, presumably -- that Dion is a "weak leader."

Pay them no mind, Ms. May. These are the delusional mutterings of a dying cult. These are the custodians of politics as it always has been: Stupidly partisan, pathologically afraid of innovation, mean-spirited and self-interested.

Faced with a bold gesture -- particularly a gesture motivated by idealism -- they are, naturally, frightened and confused. But only for a moment. Too soon they fall back into the cynicism that sustains their tired, increasingly exclusive, little club.

I went with 'good' for both Libs & Greens.  I think both sides did it for non-partisan reasons.  Dion has the most to lose.  People will assume that he needs the help getting elected in his own riding.  May is in a can't lose position.  Any publicity that the Green's get is good publicity.

A H/T to ff.  In a comment elsewhere he links to the greens website and May's reasons for running against MacKay.  I was puzzled by that, but now it makes sense and seems like a bold & smart move.

To repeat myself - a great diary MGK.  I didn't have the time to comment earlier.  I'll not ask that you put up a tip jar, I reckon by now you know the purpose of them and have declined for your own reasons.  I would like you to write more, you're analysis is enlightening to read.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 04/19/2007 12:07:27 AM EST

that great quote from the Citizen, willy!  And I agree - great diary, let's see more MGK :>)

The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

by CanadianBill on 04/19/2007 07:43:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Layton looked a little silly for a lot of reasons with his reaction, but refresh my memory .. hasn't he (Layton) already concluded some back-room dealings with Harper since this government took over, and before that to bring the last government down?

How could he utter those words?

cross-post environment political food health related at Organic Canadian Stewardship, prosperity and community.

by grassrootsbloggerdtcom on 05/05/2007 06:03:09 PM EST

I guess Layton thinks its okay, if its him..

Nice site you have there btw. Welcome. :)

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 05/05/2007 06:13:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It seems that users on this site fall into only two of the poll categories: the deal is either good for both or bad for both.

I have to admit that I voted "bad for both". For a simple reason:

Making a deal with a party that you're trying to steal seats from (crucial at a time when you don't have a caucus in the House yet) lessens your credibility. As we all know, the Liberals did diddly-squat for the environment while in office (including Dion when he was environment minister), so for May to sing his praises now, given his track record, that's just stupid (sorry).

Also, in light of more recent events, May's silly comments will hurt her and Dion.

Finally, I have heard a lot of Greens complain about the deal; some of them were so disgusted that they decided to sever their ties with the Green Party for the time being. To me, such response from within the Green community speaks volumes.

Calgary Dipper

by Musings on 05/04/2007 08:00:12 PM EST

You're supporting the NDP? This week? This month? And tomorrow you start off on another pro-Harper track?

After of course going through your little 'Liberal experiment' and then some bizarre neo-con supporting ramblings over on one of your many blogs.

Hard to keep track of where you stand and who you actually support from week-to-week (yes, I do read from time-to-time).

You're not very credible to me.

Neither is Layton.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/04/2007 08:17:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if anyone's confused about what I just posted, have look

Here

Here.

Here.

Here.

Here.

Here.

And here.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/04/2007 08:26:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks, FF.  Quite a history.  Does he think we aren't acquainted with teh google or something?  

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 05/05/2007 10:28:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
... just for the hell of it. It was a long process of debating the issues:

Here

Here

Here

In other words, I didn't arrive at my conclusion lightly -- and if you read the links above, you'll see that I detailed in step by step fashion how I arrived at my conclusion.

Calgary Dipper

by Musings on 05/05/2007 06:13:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
... nothing "illegal".

Look what blogger Daveberta, a Liberal blogger, has on his blog:

In addition, my thoughts and opinions change from time to time. I consider this a necessary consequence of having an open mind. This blog is intended to provide a semi-permanent point in time snapshot and manifestation of the various ideas running around my brain, and as such any thoughts and opinions expressed within out-of-date posts may not [be] the same, nor even similar, to those I may hold today.

If you remain stuck, you don't evolve. The beauty of human intelligence is its ability to grow and adapt over time. If that's a "crime", as suggested here by some, then I feel really sorry for you.

Calgary Dipper

by Musings on 05/05/2007 06:09:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But we also dont change our ideology like our socks either.

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 05/05/2007 06:32:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I used to drink bourbon and be for very strict gun control laws.  Now I drink red wine, preferably shiraz, and think everyone should be able to stockpile arms, including arrows soaked in pitch to be set ablaze,  to protect themselves from the followers of Stockwell Day and Tristan Emmanuel.  With extreme predjudice, natch.  

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 05/05/2007 06:39:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
... I have been focusing on issues, instead.

Famed political scientist Bernard Crick once wrote that politics, when driven or dominated by ideology, is not politics, and politics actually ceases to exist. I am totally against ideology. What's really important is issues and how different leaders and parties deal with them.

Calgary Dipper

by Musings on 05/05/2007 09:58:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think its complete.....hogwash.
Everyone has their own opinion.
And although it probably hasnt occurred to you, each party has a core stance on things, ie: social issues, healthcare, budgets etc. Those things havent changed that much during all your own shifts.

Lets see. You went from the left, right, left.

Focusing on one issue and not the larger picture is pretty much what got us in this mess. People can be pretty narrow minded when looking at it that way.
Large corporations choose party affiliations that way as well. Whats best for their bottom line?
Some of the Average Joes and Janes in the world vote based on who is going to fix the potholes on their own street; without a second thought about how it will affect the whole community.

Its the platform as a whole which would be the intelligent way to decide.Weighing the issues, and making mental lists.

Issue centered voting is part of the problem instead of the solution.

You are perfectly allowed to choose who to support, change it every week if you like.
But don't be all that surprised and offended when you lose a lot of credibility with the general population. Add to that your "experiments" and general inability to stick to one thing...and you will probably find our reactions here are not at all unusual.

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 05/05/2007 10:37:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
not to be ideological, but the parties sure are.  For instance, if you vote Conservative because you don't like the gun registry (one issue), you are supporting their whole ideology whether you like it or not.  That means the whole shebang - anti same-sex marriage, anti abortion, more religion in politics (but only their version of religion or that of their rabid base), laissez-faire Objectivism, social Darwinism. If enough people voted for them on one single issue (gun registry, sponsorship scandal) to give them a majority, they would be able to push their ideology onto us all, and who would be to blame?  The single issue voters who more likely than not don't agree with their ideology.  

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 05/06/2007 09:30:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I am not a single-issue voter; there are at least a handful of priority issues that I want to see action on -- it just so happens that the NDP happens to be the party that can make most of them reality. As I explained, the other parties would never do what's necessary with respect to these matters. For example, the Tories and Liberals would never implemente a PR system because it would hurt their "elites".

You're right: the CPC is extremely ideological, and so are the Liberals (although no one really knows what their ideology is -- oh, wait: they're after power). Layton, on the other hand, has stood out for taking a pragmatic and professional approach to the issues of the day, and for this he needs to be praised.

Each citizen's vote is worth a lot (at least, it should be), and my vote goes to the one who deserves it the most. No one is in full agreement with everything his chosen party does; it's impossible. But we look for a "preponderance", if you will, and then draw our conclusions.

Calgary Dipper

by Musings on 05/06/2007 07:24:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
when Jack Layton votes with the Conservatives, and supports their minority government, in doing that he supports their strong ideological platform whether he believes it or not.  That is why I am holding off on making a decision on whether or not to vote NDP when I'm able to do so.  I unabashedly and wholeheartedly reject almost 100% of everything Canada's New Government(tm) stands for (Republicanism North), and I'd like the party that is going to get my vote to do the same.  I'm ideologically more closely aligned with the NDP than any of the other parties (so far, anyway), but if Layton does not understand that with the Republicans North there is ONLY partisanship and NO compromise, then he will not gain me as a supporter.  

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 05/06/2007 07:52:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's not the NDP that has been keeping the Conservatives in power. They voted against both budgets. It's the Bloc that's helped them survive the crucial non-confidence votes.

If you're thinking of the Afghanistan resolution -- well, I don't agree with the NDP vote on that, and I'm not going to try to defend it. But it was a non-binding resolution. On the important votes, the NDP remains the strongest opposition there is to the Conservatives. Every New Democrat elected to parliament is still on the opposition side of the House. If only the same could be said for Liberals (cough cough Emerson cough Khan cough).

by MGK on 05/10/2007 04:13:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
right here.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/04/2007 08:30:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]