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Voted the Wrong Way? Go To Hell!

Section: Diaries
By Poeschek
05/09/2007 05:32:39 PM EST
Tags: religion, Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, Mexico, abortion, religion and politics, RANT

Well, my lunchtime web surfing led me to CBC.ca and the following outrage.

Roman Catholic politicians who support a proposed law allowing woman to have abortions in Mexico City should no longer receive communion, the Pope said Wednesday in a statement clarifying earlier remarks.
The statement, which stopped short of saying the politicians should face formal excommunication, was issued by a Vatican spokesman, Rev. Federico Lombardi, and approved by Pope Benedict XVI.
Lombardi, who was travelling with the Pope, said: "Since excommunication hasn't been declared by the Mexican bishops, the Pope has no intention himself of declaring it.
"Legislative action in favour of abortion is incompatible with participation in the Eucharist," he said. "Politicians exlude themselves from communion."

I wait with anticipation to hear that the Pope will be endorsing the excommunication of politicians who supported the Iraq War and politicians who support capital punishment. While they're at it, maybe they could excommunicate the priests who molested children instead of doing their best to protect them and cover up the story. I imagine I'll be waiting some time though.

With all due respect to any Catholics on this site, I consider the leadership of the Catholic Church to be some of the most sanctimonious and out-of-touch bastards on the planet. The Catholic Church has allowed millions to suffer and die of AIDS in Africa by opposing any sort of sex education or condom programs. Their endorsement of uncontrolled population growth in some of the most desperately poor nations of the world has got to be one of the most unconscionable positions imaginable.

I cannot for the life of me understand why abortion has become the single great issue of the day for religious groups. I always have to wonder what sort of good could be done with the amount of time, money and energy spent fighting abortion. I imagine the lives of children who have been born would be tremendously improved. I have a problem with a bunch of old, celibate men deciding the reproductive policy for over a billion people, 50%+ of them women. Developing nations have enough problems as is, encouraging them to continue reproducing at unsustainable rates only increases the pressures on their political, social and environmental systems.

Lastly, this sort of direct involvement with the political process worries me. It strikes me as something that you'd see in an Islamic fundamentalist regime. It's one thing for religious figures to criticize someone; it's something else entirely for the church to advocate excommunication for people who disagree with their position.

I can't help but think if these guys really want to get involved in the political process, it's time for them to pay the price of admission and pay taxes on their assets like the rest of us.

Just thought I'd share my lunchtime rant with all of you...

Update [2007-5-9 18:52:19 by Poeschek]: I was reminded of a similar issue in the 2004 Presidential election involving John Kerry. He was forbidden by some clerics from taking communion. In other places, some bishops apparently threatened parishoners who voted for Kerry. I find these sorts of threats quite disturbing.

Voted the Wrong Way? Go To Hell! | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)

Edited with one addition... (4.70 / 10)

And a belated tip jar. :)

by Poeschek on 05/09/2007 06:53:00 PM EST

Anytime you want to rant (4.00 / 8)

on religion is fine with me. :-)

Raised in a Catholic family (hey, we're French-Canadian, we couldn't help it) but I was glad to get out. I distrust organized religion. Even my folks eventually turned off religion, not just the Catholic Church, completely as well. The pedophile scandal may have been the last straw for them, but at some point they were also questioning the orthodoxy of 'The Church' on abortion, birth control, same sex marriage, ordination of women, ordination of gays, clergical celibacy etc...

Yes, my folks are pretty open-minded. Call them, maybe, part of the religious left if you need a label. But they were also very seriously involved in and committed to local parish and community activities for decades. When people of deeply rooted values and integrity such as my folks - and you'll just have to take my word on it - turn their back on religion as a whole then you know religion has a problem.

(Yeah, I would really love to have someone come up to me and say that my folks must obviously lack some sort of 'moral compass').

While I find the message contained within most religions to be of great value I believe that religions as institutions have been agents of far greater damage than they have been of good.

BTW - Just a suggestion since I can't edit tags, but could you add the following tags?
Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, Mexico, abortion, religion and politics, RANT

Thanks!

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/09/2007 07:21:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]

done and done (4.00 / 9)

Not too familiar with the tags, so I wasn't sure how much info was needed.

It's too bad about people like your parents. I hate how a few loudmouths like the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world have decided that they get to define what a "proper Christian" believes. Undoubtedly, the loudmouths are always fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists.

It's a shame because as you touched on, religion often filled a huge social role for communities. I have tons of respect for the people of faith who spend time in the trenches helping people and helping the community. But somewhere along the line, protesting at abortion clinics and agitating against stem cell research became more important than helping people for many religious groups.

by Poeschek on 05/09/2007 08:04:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Where the additional tags might be useful (4.00 / 8)

is as keywords on 'net searches - i.e. brings in some traffic that may have missed it otherwise, and increases the potential readership for your diary than one single tag might.

I've been surprised how often the diaries here are ranked high on searches. It's not just from the number of hits.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/09/2007 08:10:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: Heh. (3.85 / 7)

No kidding.
Canadian Republicans Suck
by prole on 05/09/2007 08:12:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]

John F. Kennedy (4.66 / 6)

In 1960, American Protestants sounded the alarm about the prospect of a Roman Catholic becoming president. Kennedy would just do the pope's bidding, they said. In retrospect, they all look like bigots. Kennedy demonstrated that it was possible to be a practicing Catholic and still responsibly run a secular democracy.

Funny thing is, these conservative Catholics who want to excommunicate Catholics who don't vote their way -- they're making the bigots right after all. Anybody who wnts to hold office in a secular state should be able to keep their religious dogmas from intruding on their official duties.

The bishops denying communion to pro-choice politicians are effectively denying any Catholic the moral right to participate in the government of a secular state. It's fine if an individual politician happens to agree with the Vatican line, or if they choose to vote that way because their constituents like it. But nobody should vote the Vatican (or any other religious authority)'s line just because it is the Vatican's line.

I've never been a Paul Martin fan, but he got this one right. He declared emphatically that he was prime minister of all Canadians, that his Catholicism was private but his prime ministerial duties were public. And that as Prime Minister he would support the Charter of Rights and not the Pope on gay rights. Bravo. I have no problem with a politician like him, or JFK, belonging to an organized religion while running a secular government.

by MGK on 05/10/2007 04:30:32 PM EST

You Go! (4.00 / 7)

"Legislative action in favour of abortion is incompatible with participation in the Eucharist," he said. "Politicians exlude themselves from communion."

Hmmmmm.... this would make a person's religion more of a campaign issue because they'd have to admit publicly that they were bound to follow their church's policies first -- probably in direct conflict with their oaths of office.

Who's next? Judges? Anyone who's a member of a church must follow that church's teachings regardless of other oaths they've taken? Wouldn't this ultimately disqualify a large segment of the population for many public sector jobs?

Good rant.

when the religious wars are upon us, will the agnostics be the enemy of both sides? Or can we just sit the whole thing out?

by daMule on 05/09/2007 06:18:28 PM EST

Agnostics and atheists (4.25 / 8)

will be among the first group to be paraded to the new inquisition (along with members of the other two Ibrahimic faiths). Not sure where the agnostics might fit in, but atheists are America's most distrusted minority.

university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in "sharing their vision of American society." Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public
snip..
today's atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past--they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. "It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common `core' of values that make them trustworthy--and in America, that `core' has historically been religious," says Edgell. Many of the study's respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Yes, I'm sure the atheists are responsible for North America's rampant materialism, and all rampant materialists are also atheists. </snark>

You have three choices. If you're lucky.

Conversion
Physical Banishment/Exile
or Die

Can't say I'm positive that option two will be available in all cases.

Nobody expects a kind of Spanish Inquisition, but I can assure it won't involve Cardinal Biggles or Cardinal Fang or any comfy chair.

However, I must say that I am grateful that I live in a location where the largest religious denomination is 'no religion'!

Let's keep it that way.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/09/2007 06:50:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]

That's my fear as well. (4.00 / 9)

It seems like outside of a few Bible Belt areas, there's a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to religion. People don't really wear their religion on their sleeve all that much in Canadian politics. If religious leaders attempted to interject themselves into public life by threatening people with religious condemnation, it would have to become a campaign issue for sure.

While not religious myself, I have no problem with religious people who share my basic values and there seem to be many. What motivates you to hold your beliefs isn't important to me, people could have a wide variety of religious or secular reasons for beliving in basic principles of social justice. What matters to me is that common purpose. I have a lot more in common with a liberal evangelical Protestant than an arch-conservative atheist.

by Poeschek on 05/09/2007 07:52:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Sounds like the Pope, (4.00 / 7)

who is after all a Head of State, meddling in the internal affairs of another nation.

Interesting that he (the Pope) declares

"It's nothing new, it's normal, it wasn't arbitrary. It is what is foreseen by the church's doctrine," the Pope responded.

Not arbitrary??!! Did I miss something? Has the Pope or one of his predecessors similarly threatened Canadian, American and European Catholic legislators? Or Canadian, American and European Catholic health professionals?

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/09/2007 06:56:03 PM EST

In the update... (4.00 / 8)

I have a couple of links to some stories about threats to Kerry when he was running for President. Those are the tip of the iceberg in the US, there were a ton of links from the 2004 election. In Spain, there was plenty of rhetoric condemning the decision to legalize gay marriage but I couldn't find any threats of excommunication.

by Poeschek on 05/09/2007 08:13:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: If I recall correctly (4.14 / 7)

there were similar grumblings at the parish and diocese level about Paul Martin and the same sex marriage issue, but no threats of excommunication or exclusion from the Eucharist by the Pope.
A-ha! Here ya' go.
From Oct. 1, 2005

Prime Minister Paul Martin may have to pay a spiritual price for leading the charge to legalize same-sex marriage in Canada.
That article goes on to make some quite intelligent commentary on differences of opinion within the Catholic Church and how lack of acknowledgment of that fact is by definition divisive. I can see some of my folk's inner debate there.
Rover believes a fiercely dogmatic church risks losing the last of its dwindling congregation.

"The fight in the church is really between the right and the centre. The left have all gone and if it keeps fighting to the right -- more conservative and more fundamental -- soon the centre will have to leave too."
In a move that signals a shift in church policy from condemning homosexual acts, but not sexual orientation, the resolutely conservative pope will also consider a proposal to ban all gay men -- whether celibate or not -- from becoming priests.
If Pope Benedict does to go ahead with the ban, Manning believes it will be the eventual undoing of his church.
"This signals the end," she said, "of the embrace of the church of the teachings of compassion and justice."
Response from Martin's parish priest in Lasalle?

The effervescent Fr. John Walsh continues to bubble up into the pages of a Canadian media ever eager to highlight the divisions in the Catholic Church. According to a Canadian Press story, Fr.Walsh, still preaching his dogmas of tolerance and love for homosexuality and sacrilege on his weekly phone-in show on CJAD radio, said that no matter what the authorities in Rome may decide, Prime Minister Paul Martin is welcome to receive communion in his Christian Community.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy
by Frank Frink on 05/09/2007 08:38:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I think there are two.... (4.00 / 6)

most important issues to the Catholic Church (and many religions although not all of course). Along with abortion, is 'gays'.... The current Pope constantly decries against gays, in fact his first public statement was devoted to the matter.

Last night I watched Part 1 of a story about the Inquisition, how one Pope, and then another ordered it.... and burned alive those who refused to follow Catholicism. We're not so terribly far away from that even today.

The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

by CanadianBill on 05/10/2007 07:59:48 AM EST

Gotta hate someone... (4.00 / 7)

There definately seems to be a schism within Christianity that mirrors the political schism found in many nations. On the one hand, there's a liberal wing that emphasizes the New Testament teachings of compassion and a conservative wing that emphasizes the strict discipline found in Old Testament teachings. It seems that more and more people are being turned away from traditional religion by the loud bigots.

It's really strange though, passages condemning homosexuality are in the Bible, but don't seem to play a critical role. It's not even one of the 10 commandments. I would think that if God only took the time to write down 10 things personally, those would be the things you'd REALLY want to follow. You'd think these guys would spend more time rooting out, say, adulterers than homosexuals...

by Poeschek on 05/10/2007 01:24:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Poescheck.... (4.00 / 6)

I've been told there are 5 or 6 bible verses related to homosexuality (which are open to interpretation) but there are over 130 related to heterosexualtiy - so it's obvious which group God thought needed the most instruction. :>)

But yest 'Christians' pick and choose what verses they'll pay attention to, that's for sure!

The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

by CanadianBill on 05/10/2007 04:05:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]

It's usually the few verses (4.00 / 6)

in Leviticus that are invoked neglecting all the other things Leviticus says about beating your children and spouse, human sacrifices, slavery, dietary cautions etc....

I read a terrific piece by a rabbi who essentially argues that Christians have incorrectly interpreted Leviticus in the first place. Wish I could remember where I stashed that link, if I did indeed stash it at all. :-(

Point that was made that homosexuality may be a 'religious' sin but not an ethical one. No more an ethical sin than eating shellfish contrary to the passages in Leviticus. Eating shellfish would not be unethical, just contrary to the orthodoxy of the religion which places a ban on eating it.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/10/2007 04:54:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

LOL... (4.00 / 7)

Sorry, I was reminded of a website I stumbled across once, http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ :)

As I understand it, they're a bunch of jokesters who picket seafood restaurants like Red Lobster. :)

by Poeschek on 05/10/2007 05:49:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: I have often wondered (4.00 / 6)

Why some parts of the Bible are to be held sacred, but the part about eating fish without scales....not so much.
See what you want and all that I guess.
No one wants to give up lobster?

I support the separation of Church and Hate....
by Pale on 05/10/2007 06:02:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: Bunch of jokesters all right (4.00 / 6)

They're doing some great nose tweaking.
That, of course, is a photoshop of the original image. ;-)

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy
by Frank Frink on 05/10/2007 06:08:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Politics and religion (4.00 / 6)

as most of us here know, they need to be kept separate.

I dont want to go on a rant about religion. And I always keep in mind that one has to separate spirituality and belief, from organized religion.

But Politics are evolving into kind of a religion in many ways....
The very right wing republicans in the states use religion to try to further their own agenda. (The rest just smell the power and the money)

I would even go so far as to say that its rubbing off on some on the left. Just check out DKos, and its almost cult like fervor as of late about the candidates. (Jerome a Paris got bitten by that one)

If any organization understands the power to be had from controlling the laws being made and whole populations in the bargain, its the Vatican. But they are a few centuries behind now, and luckily for us we don't have to worry about being burned at the stake for Heresy anymore.

But, since we are watching Fascist America, in 10 easy steps we do have other very real worries.

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 05/10/2007 12:50:33 PM EST

Oh boy. Here we go.... (4.00 / 7)

Rome rally heats up battle over legal rights for unmarried, same-sex couples

ROME: Tens of thousands of people plan to rally Saturday to protest a bill that would give legal recognition to unmarried couples, including homosexual ones, fueling a debate that has split Italy amid calls by Pope Benedict XVI to defend the traditional family.
The legislation, which awaits parliamentary approval, has underscored long-standing tensions in the largely Roman Catholic country between a desire to hold on to church-sanctioned traditions and a push toward further secularization.
[...]

Here's NPR's report from this morning - audio only.

Sorry, my summary is from memory (now at work): Spain and Italy are both currently considering approving same-sex marriage. The Vatican assumes that "as go Italy and Spain, so goes South America".

Look for a real battle to break out over this.

by daMule on 05/11/2007 10:22:18 AM EST

Spain's already there (4.00 / 6)

They legalized same sex marriage in 2005.

It had the support of two-thirds of the population.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 05/11/2007 10:34:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]

It's interesting.... (4.00 / 6)

that countries dominated by Catholic rule for so long are coming out (so to speak :>) in favor of gay rights so strongly.

Here in Canada, Quebec began granting Gay rights as early as 1982, after finally getting out from under Catholic rule of so much of the province.

The Next Agenda for Progressive Canadian Politics

by CanadianBill on 05/11/2007 09:04:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Quebec's religiosity (4.00 / 6)

I always found it interesting how Quebec changed from being the most rigidly religious society in Canada to being the most secular society in Canada. I wonder if the timing of the Quiet Revolution coming during the 1960s had a big hand in that?

by Poeschek on 05/11/2007 11:31:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: Babarian Invasions (4.00 / 5)

mention this and supposedly in a matter of mere month the churches emptied themselves.
BTW Speaking of Spain I saw a doc here in BRazil about how the quality of life, eduction you name it increase substantaly since they secularized their system.
Here in Brazil it a hot debate and worse the nut jobs Evangelical are spreading like wild fire here feeding on the poors desperation.
I do business here and every which way I turn I have to deal with these Freaks. I saw a mass and instead of good old tradition communion take your bread and go kneel at your pew It's bring your 10% of your salary(remind you that most of the followers are the poorest in the country)
Secular Humanist here and proud of it..no need for gurus, padres or pastor
Need some spiritual enlightenment Go to the beach, whatch your kid sleep at night, smoke a joint anything than turn over your pocket book and your rational thinking to these fuck jobs.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
by Canadian in Brazil on 05/18/2007 03:22:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Interesting... (4.00 / 7)

I don't know about the notion that Italy and Spain will have a huge effect on South America. It's possible, but look at the split between liberal Anglicans in North America and fundamentalist Anglicans in Africa. I would think that each region would have it's own particular circumstances when deciding on issues like gay marriage.

But yeah, it should be quite the struggle. Italian politics are chaotic when things are calm, I can only imagine what it's like when there's an actual controversy.

by Poeschek on 05/11/2007 11:18:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Recovering Catholic Here (3.50 / 4)

I was born catholic and went thru the motions until I was of adult age and then drop the whole thing like a bad habit.

I now live in Brazil ,the most Catholic country in the world, and it is here he declared this crap.

Psst Nazi-Pope follow Fallwell please!

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain

by Canadian in Brazil on 05/18/2007 03:13:50 PM EST

Voted the Wrong Way? Go To Hell! | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)

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