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So, ever flown in a 'Herc' ? Email Print

I have.  It was cool - and noisy and bumpy and slow - but most of all cool.  It was a long time ago.  The C-130 Hercules ( Wiki ) first went in service in 1956.  I flew in one in about '68.

Canada is about to finalize a deal to buy 17 new Hercules C-130J aircraft.  They are a new generation of tactical airlift planes.  They are really Super Hercules planes - they share the name and legacy of the old workhorse, but have better performance and updated electronics.  It is a good purchase, IMO.   They are needed to replace our existing old Hercs and to support our mission in Afghanistan.  Under the most optimistic scenario the first of the planes could be here in 2009.  It is possible that we will be out of Afghanistan by then.  The purchase should go ahead, IMO.  Even if we only want to operate in Canada we have to replace our aging fleet.

The purchase is not without it's bumps.  Airbus has a plane with similar, and superior, capabilities.  It has not as yet had it's first flight.  It is also the first military plane that Airbus has ever built.  Airbus recently made a proposal directly to the House Defense Committee..

Rebuilding Canada's current fleet of Hercules aircraft has also been proposed.  This is from the Canadian  American  Strategic  Review site which is hosted by Simon Fraser University, it appears.

Without details being released, it is difficult to assess SAI's proposal. DND would be less than keen to put more money into 40-year airframes. ....  SAI  had also promised earlier delivery than was possible with either the C-130J or the yet-to-be-flown A400M.

Our neighbour to the south might make it possible to move up in the waiting line for the new Super Hercules.  There are a number of planes on order for various countries and for the American military.  Since our need is urgent Lockheed-Martin could be persuaded to allow planes going to the US military to be delivered to us instead.  I am of the opinion that should Canada decide to pull out of Afghanistan that little perk might dry up as a consequence.  I am certainly not saying we should stay just to get new planes.

That's all very interesting, willy - but what is your point ?  More to the point how does it relate to 'progressive politics' ?

The former Liberal government of Paul Martin started the ball rolling on the replacement of our Hercules fleet.  Now in opposition they are not as gung ho about it.

The fact is that Paul Martin's defence policies in 2005 and Conservative policies today are almost identical. Both parties agreed during the last election on the urgent requirement to rebuild the basic capabilities of the Canadian Forces before they fail completely. They both pointed to the existing Hercules fleet as a first priority .....   They both acknowledged that the current defence- procurement process is unreliable and could not produce a replacement for the Hercules in time to forestall the loss of our lift capability entirely.

My point is - what is the role of the opposition ?  Is it their task simply to live up to their title and oppose anything the governing side proposes ?  There is some logic in that.  If the opposition points out the shortcomings and possible pitfalls in a government plan it gives the government the knowledge and opportunity to correct the course of action that all taxpayers will ultimately have to fund ( heck of a theory ).  Should there be any difference because the action relates to military spending ?  The government is tasked with running the country and anticipating it's needs - to coin a phrase " getting it done ".  The opposition plays a valuable balancing role, they are not simply the government in waiting, IMO.  The opposition would not get any brownie points from the government or the media if, when in opposition, they agreed with the course of action that they proposed when in power.  They would, however, be doing the right thing.  And doing the right thing will not necessarily get you votes.

Related to this ThursdayNext, in August of last year, diaried the issue of military procurement - Troubling issue: Defense contracts

It is a view of the bigger picture.

Canadian Military Journal
had an opinion ( pdf ) on aircraft replacement in the winter of 2005 - 2006

Given our track record, most would probably wager that we will fly the CC-130Hs to exhaustion and then not replace them with anything.

I don't believe the deal is all tied up. This CTV article from October 2006 speculates it will be signed in the fall of 2007.  I believe the deal is awaiting Cabinet approval.  It has some points as to why the deal could be opposed.  A little bit of conflict of interest in both the Lockheed and Airbus connections.

Underneath the billion-dollar battle between Lockheed and Airbus is a tangled web of professional and personal relationships in Ottawa's political and lobbyist community.

For example, before he became Canada's top soldier, Hillier was on the staff of General Patrick O'Donnell. O'Donnell retired to head up a consultancy, CFN Consultants, and is now the registered lobbyist for Lockheed Martin. The firm Hill and Knowlton is the registered lobbyist for Airbus. It's chief executive is Michael Coates, who worked on the last two Conservative election campaigns, including coaching Prime Minister Harper for the leaders' debates. Gordon O'Connor, before entering politics, worked as a lobbyist at Hill and Knowlton and one of his clients was Airbus.

On the surface politics looks less than perfect, underneath ......

I tend to ask more questions than I answer.  As my age advances I had hopes of reversing the equation.  No luck so far.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/04/2007 11:42:59 PM EST

especially on the part of Mr. O'Connor, hasn;t stopped the CONS in any of their military procurement to date. Notice how many awarded as single, non comptetive bids?

- More than 40% of DND contracts in FY2006-07 reported by Business Access Canada were classified as "non-competitive."
- The percentage value of all DND contracts classified by Business Access Canada as "non-competitive" more than doubled over two years between FY2004-05 and FY2006-07

Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on military contracting, June 2007

TorStar, April 12, 2007

Globe & Mail, June 11, 2007

Montreal Gazette, June 11, 2007

Embassy (Hill Times) , June 13, 2007

Throwing another potential monkey-wrench in this - will (the ex-military/defense industry lobbyist) O'Connor even be Defense Minister when the House reconvenes? And what effect, if any, will that have on future procurement tenders?

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 05:30:22 PM EST

...a fine bunch of links you have there, ff.  Thanks.

I was thinking that the way the numbers are expressed would mean a possibly skewed view - if the big dollar items ( the C-130J's, the C-17 GlobeMaster's, the Chinook's ) were included in the calculation.

Your Montreal Gazette link proves the case that the numbers are a bad as they look.

and does not include the $17 billion in new military equipment spending announced last year by the Conservative government.

Ya done good !

If O'Connor isn't the Defense Minster come the fall I don't think it will have much effect on the contracts.  As to future procurements -- I think if the Libs are back in it will revert back to the way things have always been.  That being 20 years to acquire major equipment.  Perhaps that serves the taxpayers and the public purse well.  I don't feel it serves the military well.  It's a tough nut to crack.

Speaking of the C-17's, Andrew Coyne had this article from January '07.

He is talking about how a successful bidder for large equipment items ( planes, ships ) must somehow spend money in Canada.

The problem is not the inevitable regional beard-pulling over who gets what share of Boeing's largesse, but the very policy that there must be such "benefits" to be distributed whenever the government enters into a contract of this kind.

The feds are not so demented as to insist that the aircraft in question be constructed entirely in this country. Rather, the winning bidder is obliged to spend precisely the amount of the contract in Canada, whether on the construction of that plane or any other, including passenger planes.

First question: Why the same amount? No reason, except that it looks good politically. It makes it look as if the government had contracted with Canadian suppliers to build planes in Canada, rather than paid a foreign supplier to build planes elsewhere

I don't know how Andrew Coyne is considered at this site.  The article just came up when I googled around and I found it interesting.
So, I wrote the above - then I read another article by Mr. Coyne - I don't agree with his stand on minimum wage.  Methinks I might not agree with Mr. Coyne on much.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/05/2007 10:02:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Agree with him sometimes, disagree sometimes. He's known for saying he eschews traditional ideological labels and doesn't consider himself either 'left' or 'right'. Close to a Red Tory except for being a supporter for an increased GWOT role for Canada.

Incidently, his cousin is Deborah Coyne who is very active in the Liberal Party. Constitutional lawyer, staffer in John Turner's PMO, adviser to former NL premier Clyde Wells, and federal candidate in Toronto-Danforth.  She's also the woman who bore Pierre Trudeau's youngest child and only daughter.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 10:27:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I didn't know the linkages there.  I was aware that the mother of Trudeau's youngest child had a Newfoundland connection.

I should have mentioned my other reply :

several parallels to the current Canadian political landscape

That is a valid point.  History repeats itself.  It would be good if the Libs could learn from history and not become arrogant.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/05/2007 10:48:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
really isn't my thing.

If the military needs aircraft with a particular set of characteristics and the Herc is best then let's get them.

The Sea King debacle should be instructive. The original replacement for the aging Sea Kings was determined in 1987 by Mulroney. Politics and the smell of corruption being what they are the actual replacements weren't decided upon until 2004 with the first delivery to take place in 2008. C148 CycloneThat's only about 20 years late!

No wonder leasing has become an attractive option for military operations.

And to think that when I learned Latin back in high school one of the first verbs taught was:

Vasto vastare vastavi vastatus: "to make empty, deprive of occupants, desert, vacate, void, empty, lay waste, desolate, ...

I knew the ancient Roman army marched on its stomach and it would lay waste to its enemies. In those days war was funded by seizing the treasures of the enemy.

by paul2port on 07/05/2007 10:18:02 AM EST

Now I can see why Steverino wants to put more into the flying forces:
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Note the resemblance. Hmmm. Coincidental? I think not.

The RCAF logo came first. As updated here I think one graphic artist was inspired by the other. The flag flap isn't over yet!

In marketing a sure indicator of a weak product is a patriotic campaign.

by paul2port on 07/05/2007 10:31:02 AM EST

Canadian Air Force
and you know who for the other one.

by paul2port on 07/05/2007 10:33:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Was that the red Maple Leaf that we know today wasn't actually Mike Pearson's (and by extension, the Liberal Party's) choice. He preferred one with two blue bands and three red maple leaves instead of the red bands and single leaf we have today. The Tories weren't opposed on the basis of flag colour (i.e. Tory blue instead of Liberal red), Dief just simply did not want the Red Esign changed. At all.

It's true! It's true!

Had to point that out to a wingnut over the Canada Day weekend who claimed very loudly and aggressively in defence of Harper's Canada Day 'blue' in Ottawa, that our flag is 'red' because that's the Liberal Party colour (i.e 'well, the Liberals did it first' defense).

They don't seem to really know or understand much Canadian history.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 05:06:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I never got the whole flag flap personally.

Of course the maple leaf was adopted the same year I was born, so I dont know any different anyway.

I suspect (IMHO) that many that are unaware were probably edjumacated about it by relatives who were still pissed about the whole thing. lol

I support the separation of Church and Hate....

by Pale on 07/05/2007 05:57:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
was a group of people who didn't want to cut the apron strings to Mama England. Rule Britannia The same group of people who still believe to this day that 'The Maple Leaf Forever' should have been and should be our National Anthem - big love-in with England.

First Verse

In days of yore, from Britain's shore,
Wolfe, the dauntless hero came,
And planted firm Britannia's flag,
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave, our boast, our pride,
And joined in love together,
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwine

Fourth (and final verse)

On merry England's far famed land
May kind heaven sweetly smile,
God bless old Scotland evermore
and Ireland's Em'rald Isle!
And swell the song both loud and long
Till rocks and forest quiver!
God save our Queen and Heaven bless
The Maple Leaf forever!

Yep, that really says a lot to my family history of 350 years here. </snark>

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 06:42:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...I can see how that wouldn't go over well.

What if we sang the song in French, with bad accents ?  I jest, I make snark, I try to make a funny.  The sad truth is some people think that that is all that would be needed to ' accommodate ' the aggrieved.  I think the gesture would be pandering, done without a lick of sense or sensitivity.

I never knew the song or it's lyrics and was only vaguely aware of its existence.

It is funny how the flag flap still resonates.  I must be older than some because I remember the picking and introduction of the flag.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/05/2007 09:16:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
why it doesn't resonate well in Quebec. The song was always closely associated with the Orange Lodge (the composer, Alexander Muir was a prominent Confederation-era Orangemen). So, that meant anti-Catholic for one thing. The Orange Lodge's role and complicity in Riel's trial, verdict and execution isn't completely forgotten either.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 10:50:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
that is a very red, white, and blue looking graphic.  Hmmmmmm.  

Canadian Republicans Suck

by prole on 07/05/2007 08:41:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Progerssive Conservative leader of the opposition Diefenbaker was opposed to changing from the Red Ensign. No secret that Dief was a staunch Canadian protectionist (except when it came, sadly, to the Avro Arrow) and somehwat hostile to US influence. Although when Dief was PM (the last truly succesful Western Canadian populist PM) he got along well with Ike but was very hostile to JFK.

Actually reading his Wikipedia entry brings to mind several paralells to the current Canadian political landscape (Liberal Party needs a time out, Liberal arrogance, lack of transparency etc...), although in a s omehwat paralell universe sort of way.

(And willy, note the mention of James Coyne (the 'Coyne Crisis', then Governor of the Bank of Canada in the Dief link. He's pundit Andrew Coyne's dad.)

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 10:19:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Or as I heard my father refer to him " Dief the Thief ".  I don't know what problem Dad had with Deifenbaker or the Conservatives ( Progressive or otherwise ).  Some suspect he was a NDP sympathizer - not that there's anything wrong with that.

I am not old enough to remember the Avro Arrow incident, I was still in short pants.  In hindsight it was a shame, at the very least, to have lost that industry.

Andrew Coyne I didn't know - nor his father's service to the country.  An interesting lesson in recent history.  Thanks.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/05/2007 10:41:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
during the time of Dief's government. There was that 'Coyne Crisis' thing. That one scared off a lot of international investment at the time.

I would hazard a guess that if we were in a recession then times were not that good out on the flatlands.

The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

by Frank Frink on 07/05/2007 10:56:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...thing is quite interesting.  That and the spin that Diefenbaker was able to get elected and had not ever had much experience in managing an enterprise ( never had to hire or fire anyone in his civilian life ).  A firebrand and orator.

Regarding Dad's political persuasion - he worked for the provincial government and I never knew until my mid-twenties which way he voted.  That's likely because of a certain denseness on my part.  He did keep his politics close to his vest on the reasoning that he might be disadvantaged at work if his party was not in power.  Sad that that was the reality, and I think it was at that time and perhaps even now.

Here's a golden oldie - Conserve Water / Shower with a friend

by willy be frantic on 07/05/2007 11:17:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]